I think the fatigue comes and goes, and manifests in different ways. Integrated bracelet sports watches are cooling off, there’s more noise from the community around unhealthy business practices, and nobody seems happy with the state of watch media. There are opportunities in all of that for the seeds of disruption and innovation to sprout. Better watches, better voices, better experiences are possible.
Thank you, Jack, for saying what needed to be said. I suppose we could simply chalk this up to the lifecycle of fame as transferred from people to products: anonymity, followed by an explosion of interest and adulation, followed by backlash and, sometimes, ignominy and collapse. But for a lot of us, watches were something we loved way, way before the online-fueled hype of the last half-dozen or so years, and that moves this from something we can observe and not much care about (Milli Vanilli, anyone?) to something that hurts a little. My own reaction hasn't been to walk away altogether; rather, it's been to focus entirely on a few brands whose watches I enjoy and who have kept their prices more or less reasonable in spite of the craziness: Longines, Tissot, Oris. ("Reasonable," of course, in the context of Watchworld, which is a context someone not into watches probably won't understand.) But Rolex, Patek, Lange, and all those wonderful independents that I used to covet? Detached observation from afar is all I can muster anymore. I don't wish them ill; I just don't much care.
It’s very simple Jack, people don’t know any longer if the watch they buy will be worth more in the future, so they don’t buy. The blessed day has finally come, rejoice!
Well said, Jack. I, for one, still love the watches, but tire of the relentless noise surrounding them. It seems that the multitude of podcasts are all interviewing the same guests and repeating the same tropes. Most online watch media copies and pastes press releases. The ceaseless talk about watches as investments has been replaced by ceaseless talk about watch values correcting/crashing (depending on source and brand). Pricing for new watches has come unmoored from value. That said, conversations with knowledgeable collectors are still a joy, great books about horology still command attention, and there are still interesting watches available at many price points, often from previously unknown players. Perhaps this is all part of cyclical interest, exacerbated by pandemic effects.
Anecdotal, but I find my own sense of ennui stems more from the absence of the unknown, at least with regards to finding novelty in the history (however fabulated) of any given reference or manufacture. Those many and varied depths have been rather thoroughly plumbed since the rise of (modern, online) watch media and the associated explosion of marketing teams catering directly thereto, and I increasingly find myself in search of something new—rather: old, niche, and sufficiently granular—to hold my interest. New releases and continued tinkering at the edges of materials science and engineering are fine for skimmable press releases, but that's not really why I'm here in the first place.
A couple of people have mentioned the state of watch media and I think this is the one that has big second-order effects. The broader community of online watch dorks might be able to sustain itself, but it really does need some kind of extra input to improve or grow. Ultimately I participate in online watch stuff because I find watches interesting and want to learn more. That’s getting harder and harder. A lot of the sorts of articles that taught me about watches aren’t written anymore. That’s not just a watch media issue or a consequence of specific editorial decisions, it’s a structural problem across all of ad-supported media. There are a lot of people who want to commission, write, and read informative articles about watches (or clothes, or music, or film, or local politics, or…)—there’s just no way to pay for the articles that’s scaled.
This also means there are fewer entry points now into developing an interest in watches *as watches*, finding out you like little timekeeping objects for reasons beyond hype cycles. My entry point to seeing watches as more than just accessories was stumbling on Worn & Wound’s affordable vintage blog (read via RSS, I’m old!)—it showed me that there was an interesting history to the design, engineering, and business of watches, and that I could access this history pretty easily.
Easily is key—maybe it’s age but the way social media (and “regular” media) is structured seems to reward casual interest while raising the increased the barriers towards developing a deeper one. This puts a community at serious risk of ossification—there’s less new information being put out there and there are fewer people falling down the rabbit hole into serious enthusiasm. I think it also makes people more on-guard about their peers: is this person’s interest legitimate, are they asking questions seriously, will interacting with this person be a waste of my time?
I might be hitting a diminishing returns point in my own enthusiasm. I’m learning less, and have hit link rot once or twice when trying to learn more. What I really want to do, though, is share what knowledge I have and gain new perspectives on it—I think there’s still enough of a community where I can do that.
"The last few years have not been a distinguished one for innovation in horology, holding the line in terms of movement quality in construction and finish, or even inventiveness in design."
I agree with this in part, but I think beneath the surface there is some exciting and cool stuff going on. For sure, the era of crazy hype bordering on fetishism for similar-looking, stainless steel, integrated bracelet sports watches is cooling down. But we're starting to see expanded use of interesting materials across brands, particularly titanium, and to a lesser extent bronze, ceramic, carbon fiber, and exotic precious metals like tantalum. While Rolex toes the line, sister brand Tudor is getting funky with all of the above.
In terms of movement innovation, I honestly think the German and Japanese companies are leaving the Swiss behind. Grand Seiko's new Dual Impulse escapement is the first novel, mass produced escapement in decades since the co-axial at Omega, and they continue to improve their spring drive and hi-beat movements, along with improving the finishing (the decoration on the automatic white birch is quite impressive for the price point, IMO). Lange continues to innovate for the sake of innovation, take for example their 2023 release of that crazy Odysseus chronograph (although for sure that will not be obtainable for virtually anyone outside of high rollers with connections, but at least its super cool and unique).
Even in terms of dials, we're moving away from a sea of black diver clones and wanna-be Nautilus/RO blue watches to a variety of colorful dials that celebrate weirdness. Hell, even stuffy ole Rolex is adding bubbles and flowers and emojis to OPs and DJs!
Obviously, you are aware of all this, not suggesting this is new information. It is worth stepping back to remember the excitement those of us earlier in the journey have as we follow the watch industry. I for one am kinda stoked to see watches return to being a little bit more for the actual enthusiasts rather than influencers and get-rich-quick flippers who could care less whether its an AP or a sneaker as long as their margins are healthy. One of the things that has increased my enjoyment of this hobby the most in the last few years was joining a local Redbar group and sharing our passion with likeminded people in person and through our Whatsapp group, rather than just consuming articles/videos on my own. Here's to hoping for softer grey market prices and slightly improving availability of watches in the near future.
There has been an obvious decrease in interest in post-COVID as well as a disconnect. The constant over-hype of auctions, flippers and waitlists signal to middle-class people like me that I'm never going to be included in that world....that the brands don't care about me.
Apple watches are everywhere and, in many ways, they are antithetical to the old fashion horological enthusiasts. We enjoy watches with enduring appeal (be it vintage, timeless designs, simplicity or toolness, etc) whereas an AW exists to distract, become obsolete and replaced. The dream that AW's lead to mechanical interests was always a fallacy as AW actually directs away from mechanical and towards smart glasses, other wearables, etc.
Like some of my friends, I have decreased interest in certain major brands and even minimized browsing the Big H website as it feels like empty "content" rather than information. Like @Jean-Luc below, quality writing is difficult to find. That being said, these funny old watches still hold my interest and I can still talk about them with a few people.
Thanks for this bit of common sense. I hope the gurus in Switzerland are listening (but I doubt it).
As a collector of Bulova watches, an old American brand, I have found that market remains approachable and filled with great fun watches even if they aren’t “high horology.”
So, my enthusiasm remains even if I will never own one of today’s Swiss watches.
It's interesting. I started off in this hobby focused on vintage watches and I'm now back almost exclusively interested in vintage watches or actually better said ... half-vintage (80s/90s). My last three watches were a 90s VC ultra thin, a tritium dial IWC Fliegerchronograph, and I just found a prototype ("testuhr 3504") Porsche Design Ocean 2000. My last "new" watch was an Ochs und Junior annual calendar in 2018. Nothing seems to catch my eye or actually -- the watches that catch my eye are shockingly expensive and / or unobtainable (e.g., Rexhep Rexhepi). So I definitely get what you're saying -- but for me I reached that place years ago.
1. Brand over product. Look at Rolex - many would buy **any** available Rolex model from an AD, instead of picking a watch that makes sense for them, regardless of brand. Of course, all luxury brands master charging for intangible value, but that kind of value is fickle. Quality products less so.
2. Price hikes do make sense in economic theory: After all, Patek and Rolex see people pay 2-10X the retail price for their products on the grey market. And demand far outstrips what they (can) produce. However, no guarantees this situation will last.
3. Hype vs. true passion. Unlike, say, cars & phones, mechanical watches are not something people need to own. So mainstream watch hype might die, potentially burning those who paid top dollar. But for true enthusiasts, this could be a moment they get their hobby back.
I think the fatigue comes and goes, and manifests in different ways. Integrated bracelet sports watches are cooling off, there’s more noise from the community around unhealthy business practices, and nobody seems happy with the state of watch media. There are opportunities in all of that for the seeds of disruption and innovation to sprout. Better watches, better voices, better experiences are possible.
Thank you, Jack, for saying what needed to be said. I suppose we could simply chalk this up to the lifecycle of fame as transferred from people to products: anonymity, followed by an explosion of interest and adulation, followed by backlash and, sometimes, ignominy and collapse. But for a lot of us, watches were something we loved way, way before the online-fueled hype of the last half-dozen or so years, and that moves this from something we can observe and not much care about (Milli Vanilli, anyone?) to something that hurts a little. My own reaction hasn't been to walk away altogether; rather, it's been to focus entirely on a few brands whose watches I enjoy and who have kept their prices more or less reasonable in spite of the craziness: Longines, Tissot, Oris. ("Reasonable," of course, in the context of Watchworld, which is a context someone not into watches probably won't understand.) But Rolex, Patek, Lange, and all those wonderful independents that I used to covet? Detached observation from afar is all I can muster anymore. I don't wish them ill; I just don't much care.
It’s very simple Jack, people don’t know any longer if the watch they buy will be worth more in the future, so they don’t buy. The blessed day has finally come, rejoice!
Well said, Jack. I, for one, still love the watches, but tire of the relentless noise surrounding them. It seems that the multitude of podcasts are all interviewing the same guests and repeating the same tropes. Most online watch media copies and pastes press releases. The ceaseless talk about watches as investments has been replaced by ceaseless talk about watch values correcting/crashing (depending on source and brand). Pricing for new watches has come unmoored from value. That said, conversations with knowledgeable collectors are still a joy, great books about horology still command attention, and there are still interesting watches available at many price points, often from previously unknown players. Perhaps this is all part of cyclical interest, exacerbated by pandemic effects.
Anecdotal, but I find my own sense of ennui stems more from the absence of the unknown, at least with regards to finding novelty in the history (however fabulated) of any given reference or manufacture. Those many and varied depths have been rather thoroughly plumbed since the rise of (modern, online) watch media and the associated explosion of marketing teams catering directly thereto, and I increasingly find myself in search of something new—rather: old, niche, and sufficiently granular—to hold my interest. New releases and continued tinkering at the edges of materials science and engineering are fine for skimmable press releases, but that's not really why I'm here in the first place.
A couple of people have mentioned the state of watch media and I think this is the one that has big second-order effects. The broader community of online watch dorks might be able to sustain itself, but it really does need some kind of extra input to improve or grow. Ultimately I participate in online watch stuff because I find watches interesting and want to learn more. That’s getting harder and harder. A lot of the sorts of articles that taught me about watches aren’t written anymore. That’s not just a watch media issue or a consequence of specific editorial decisions, it’s a structural problem across all of ad-supported media. There are a lot of people who want to commission, write, and read informative articles about watches (or clothes, or music, or film, or local politics, or…)—there’s just no way to pay for the articles that’s scaled.
This also means there are fewer entry points now into developing an interest in watches *as watches*, finding out you like little timekeeping objects for reasons beyond hype cycles. My entry point to seeing watches as more than just accessories was stumbling on Worn & Wound’s affordable vintage blog (read via RSS, I’m old!)—it showed me that there was an interesting history to the design, engineering, and business of watches, and that I could access this history pretty easily.
Easily is key—maybe it’s age but the way social media (and “regular” media) is structured seems to reward casual interest while raising the increased the barriers towards developing a deeper one. This puts a community at serious risk of ossification—there’s less new information being put out there and there are fewer people falling down the rabbit hole into serious enthusiasm. I think it also makes people more on-guard about their peers: is this person’s interest legitimate, are they asking questions seriously, will interacting with this person be a waste of my time?
I might be hitting a diminishing returns point in my own enthusiasm. I’m learning less, and have hit link rot once or twice when trying to learn more. What I really want to do, though, is share what knowledge I have and gain new perspectives on it—I think there’s still enough of a community where I can do that.
"The last few years have not been a distinguished one for innovation in horology, holding the line in terms of movement quality in construction and finish, or even inventiveness in design."
I agree with this in part, but I think beneath the surface there is some exciting and cool stuff going on. For sure, the era of crazy hype bordering on fetishism for similar-looking, stainless steel, integrated bracelet sports watches is cooling down. But we're starting to see expanded use of interesting materials across brands, particularly titanium, and to a lesser extent bronze, ceramic, carbon fiber, and exotic precious metals like tantalum. While Rolex toes the line, sister brand Tudor is getting funky with all of the above.
In terms of movement innovation, I honestly think the German and Japanese companies are leaving the Swiss behind. Grand Seiko's new Dual Impulse escapement is the first novel, mass produced escapement in decades since the co-axial at Omega, and they continue to improve their spring drive and hi-beat movements, along with improving the finishing (the decoration on the automatic white birch is quite impressive for the price point, IMO). Lange continues to innovate for the sake of innovation, take for example their 2023 release of that crazy Odysseus chronograph (although for sure that will not be obtainable for virtually anyone outside of high rollers with connections, but at least its super cool and unique).
Even in terms of dials, we're moving away from a sea of black diver clones and wanna-be Nautilus/RO blue watches to a variety of colorful dials that celebrate weirdness. Hell, even stuffy ole Rolex is adding bubbles and flowers and emojis to OPs and DJs!
Obviously, you are aware of all this, not suggesting this is new information. It is worth stepping back to remember the excitement those of us earlier in the journey have as we follow the watch industry. I for one am kinda stoked to see watches return to being a little bit more for the actual enthusiasts rather than influencers and get-rich-quick flippers who could care less whether its an AP or a sneaker as long as their margins are healthy. One of the things that has increased my enjoyment of this hobby the most in the last few years was joining a local Redbar group and sharing our passion with likeminded people in person and through our Whatsapp group, rather than just consuming articles/videos on my own. Here's to hoping for softer grey market prices and slightly improving availability of watches in the near future.
Horology is dead, long live horology!
There has been an obvious decrease in interest in post-COVID as well as a disconnect. The constant over-hype of auctions, flippers and waitlists signal to middle-class people like me that I'm never going to be included in that world....that the brands don't care about me.
Apple watches are everywhere and, in many ways, they are antithetical to the old fashion horological enthusiasts. We enjoy watches with enduring appeal (be it vintage, timeless designs, simplicity or toolness, etc) whereas an AW exists to distract, become obsolete and replaced. The dream that AW's lead to mechanical interests was always a fallacy as AW actually directs away from mechanical and towards smart glasses, other wearables, etc.
Like some of my friends, I have decreased interest in certain major brands and even minimized browsing the Big H website as it feels like empty "content" rather than information. Like @Jean-Luc below, quality writing is difficult to find. That being said, these funny old watches still hold my interest and I can still talk about them with a few people.
Jack,
Thanks for this bit of common sense. I hope the gurus in Switzerland are listening (but I doubt it).
As a collector of Bulova watches, an old American brand, I have found that market remains approachable and filled with great fun watches even if they aren’t “high horology.”
So, my enthusiasm remains even if I will never own one of today’s Swiss watches.
Long live recycling the 1950s!
JR
old warrior and even older novelist
It's interesting. I started off in this hobby focused on vintage watches and I'm now back almost exclusively interested in vintage watches or actually better said ... half-vintage (80s/90s). My last three watches were a 90s VC ultra thin, a tritium dial IWC Fliegerchronograph, and I just found a prototype ("testuhr 3504") Porsche Design Ocean 2000. My last "new" watch was an Ochs und Junior annual calendar in 2018. Nothing seems to catch my eye or actually -- the watches that catch my eye are shockingly expensive and / or unobtainable (e.g., Rexhep Rexhepi). So I definitely get what you're saying -- but for me I reached that place years ago.
Jack, on point as always! Few yes-ands:
1. Brand over product. Look at Rolex - many would buy **any** available Rolex model from an AD, instead of picking a watch that makes sense for them, regardless of brand. Of course, all luxury brands master charging for intangible value, but that kind of value is fickle. Quality products less so.
2. Price hikes do make sense in economic theory: After all, Patek and Rolex see people pay 2-10X the retail price for their products on the grey market. And demand far outstrips what they (can) produce. However, no guarantees this situation will last.
3. Hype vs. true passion. Unlike, say, cars & phones, mechanical watches are not something people need to own. So mainstream watch hype might die, potentially burning those who paid top dollar. But for true enthusiasts, this could be a moment they get their hobby back.